Curse

swordfisher · Mar 31, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

If it came down to choosing between Shatters, I'd pick shatter enchantment roughly every time. I've been killed by Shatter Enchantment...enough...and Shatter Hex next to never. Shatter Hex just isn't as flexible an offensive tool, being as the damage is a side effect conditional on positioning.

JR · Mar 31, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordfisher

If it came down to choosing between Shatters, I'd pick shatter enchantment roughly every time. I've been killed by Shatter Enchantment...enough...and Shatter Hex next to never. Shatter Hex just isn't as flexible an offensive tool, being as the damage is a side effect conditional on positioning.

Thus why it is more usefull in Warrior heavy builds, where you will have multiple characters in melee range of opponents most of the time. Although I would probably always take Shatter Enchantment over it, if I was forced to choose between the two and not run both.

Valkyries · Mar 31, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Thus why it is more usefull in Warrior heavy builds, where you will have multiple characters in melee range of opponents most of the time. Although I would probably always take Shatter Enchantment over it, if I was forced to choose between the two and not run both.

Thanks, Ill definitely go with the shatter Enchant.

On a side note, I found something a little sad this evening.

I went to observe some of the guild fights, just to get a better idea on what skills to use, what other top end guilds were running and honestly 95% of them were running EDenial for ALL their mesmers. Then occassionally I would see one using Glyph... so I was like, ah cool someone using something cool, I will watch. All they do then is spam Stone Daggers and use Obs. Flame... I was so disappointed, really.... I did see some other cool tricks. Some obvious like Phantom Pain + SD. That was pretty neat all the same, did a lot of damage. Still though I didn't see any Pure Dom mesmers NOT running EDenial.

JYX · Mar 31, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Yeah its true. But I think its important to understand why builds are used. Surgers are reliable, comparatively easy to use and is fairly versatile, after all most builds need energy right? It is very nice in attrition builds, and generally compliments warriors well, in part due to the aforementioned flexibility. It is a very solid choice, hard to screw up even if you try. You do find the odd Glyph-Dom mesmer though, and fastcasting air spikers are always popular.

I feel I should contribute a build as I haven't in quite a while. I'll post my dom resmer I designed a while ago. I used a version with drain enchant for a bit, but I decided to cut that eventually in favor of some more fastcasting, you may find the energy constraints a bit too much but I was fine most of the time. If you're not a big fan of fastcasting (which I'll be honest I'm unnaturally attracted to) then you can easily spec into insp and get yourself drain enchant. You could also easily stick in a hard rez of your choice.

Me/Mo
12+3 Fast Casting
12+2 Domination
Shatter Enchant
Diversion
Guilt
Shame
Blackout
Martyr {e}
Remove Hex
Res

LouAl · Mar 31, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

I find I am also unnaturally attracted to Fast Casting. I cannot stand it when I get interrupted and for that reason hate spells with lengthy cast times.

Every once in a while I run a build with 16 in FC just because I HATE getting interrupted. Why do people have to mess with my spells? Don't they know that I have to wait for them to recharge? grrrr

I have a similar build to JYX's but without Martyr (I like that addition tho) and without Black out (it burns me to get that close to people). I usually run that build with Power Block, Leak, or CoF instead. Sometimes I also run it with slightly less FC, although it pains me to do it, and some points in Insp to fuel MoRecall.

LightningHell · Apr 01, 2006, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyries

Thanks, Ill definitely go with the shatter Enchant.

On a side note, I found something a little sad this evening.

I went to observe some of the guild fights, just to get a better idea on what skills to use, what other top end guilds were running and honestly 95% of them were running EDenial for ALL their mesmers. Then occassionally I would see one using Glyph... so I was like, ah cool someone using something cool, I will watch. All they do then is spam Stone Daggers and use Obs. Flame... I was so disappointed, really.... I did see some other cool tricks. Some obvious like Phantom Pain + SD. That was pretty neat all the same, did a lot of damage. Still though I didn't see any Pure Dom mesmers NOT running EDenial.

Well, you ARE on your way to being a true Mesmer. Hmm.

EDenial is easy, which is why people run it. Stupid people.

By the way have you gotten any practice on your Dom build?

Valkyries · Apr 01, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Well, you ARE on your way to being a true Mesmer. Hmm.

EDenial is easy, which is why people run it. Stupid people.

By the way have you gotten any practice on your Dom build?

Hey LightningHell,

Ahhh man I love my Mesmer.

I did get some practice. What I started doing is running a bit of a mix between some Warrior hate and some of my Dom Abilities to get used to interupting, Diversion, etc, etc. So I could still stay alive (just not as well) in TA and learn some new Mesmer tricks at the same time. One of my favorites combinations I try though has to be Phantom Pain + Shatters Delusions. WOW! I knew about this combo for ages, but I really had no idea it was that power. Especially if the foe is < 50% life. Its like a 35% spike most of the time. Crazy.. I'd like to work this into some builds in the future for sure.

Quote:

Yeah its true. But I think its important to understand why builds are used. Surgers are reliable, comparatively easy to use and is fairly versatile, after all most builds need energy right? It is very nice in attrition builds, and generally compliments warriors well, in part due to the aforementioned flexibility. It is a very solid choice, hard to screw up even if you try. You do find the odd Glyph-Dom mesmer though, and fastcasting air spikers are always popular.

I feel I should contribute a build as I haven't in quite a while. I'll post my dom resmer I designed a while ago. I used a version with drain enchant for a bit, but I decided to cut that eventually in favor of some more fastcasting, you may find the energy constraints a bit too much but I was fine most of the time. If you're not a big fan of fastcasting (which I'll be honest I'm unnaturally attracted to) then you can easily spec into insp and get yourself drain enchant. You could also easily stick in a hard rez of your choice.

Me/Mo
12+3 Fast Casting
12+2 Domination
Shatter Enchant
Diversion
Guilt
Shame
Blackout
Martyr {e}
Remove Hex
Res

Honestly, I've still yet to see any Mesmers using Glyph as a way to help their own Mesmer skills out. Only for Obs. Flame builds. Which really is kind of said. I do like your build however, but Ill be honest, Im not sure if its really for me. I have no doubts is very good just by the skillsets you are running but Im lost without Inspiration

Im also still pretty new to the game. I've only been playing approx a month, but Mesmer is really all I've ever known. Sure, I've tried the rest of the classes to see how they were, but this is where I definitely get the most satisfaction. So Im sticking with it.

Now, Im a bit confused on where to go next. Im not sure if I should be playing EDenial (or maybe some conbination of EDenial and Skill Denial) so that I can get onto a team in HA. Ive slowly worked my way up from RA->TA->and now I really want to start doing the 8v8 battles. I observe for usually just a few minutes whenever I play. I know its kinda "noobish"(hey I am a noob) but I like to see what other skills players are using and get an idea on how they play. Its not to steal their build, skill for skill.... just nice to see other options. At any rate, I think I may have to do some sort of combination and see how that works. Find the Mesmer Dom skills I like the best and use those. Not full Edenial but maybe a touch of everything. Do you think this is a good idea or will I just limit my abilities and make me good at nothing? I guess it may depend, just trying to get a handle on how I can have the best of both worlds.

rii · Apr 01, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

I think Domination distinguishes itself from Illusion in that is is much more powerful in taking out single characters in a big way, as opposed to illusion which is more about frustrating multiple opponents. Arcane conundrum and migraine dont stack well, so take two people out... diversion and shatter enchantment can be used to reasonable conclusion on the same person... perhaps not so annoying to multiple people.

Therefore in Domination you can just spec to take someone out. How you want to do it is up to you... not focusing on energy denial fully is fine but only if the skills your not using are pulling their weight. Blackout is always a good starter skill... spike assist, adrenaline denial/anti-adrenal spike, even interrupt in eles case. Diversion on top of that and barring outside help the target is not doing anything. Adding signet of weariness and energy burn is fairly resonable..... as said above... energy is the fundamental resource after health.
Domination is the kind of line where you can just pick out the skills you like, and as long as you have some sort of knowhow youll do the business.

LightningHell · Apr 01, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyries

-snip-

Have you played in any GvG?

By the way, Diversion can be pretty fun with Warriors, too. If you can anticipate their skills.

However, IMHO, Shatter Delusions + Phantom Pain is not really needed when you have a Warrior, because usual Wars play around with Deep Wound anyways.

The Mesmer is a bit different than a Warrior, for example, IMO. A Warrior you can throw together the skills that work best together and play. For a Mesmer, in my experience, you have to be sort of second nature to the build itself. Usually when I play with another Mesmer's build, I end up playing suboptimal-ly. Even if I switch the skills around my favorite build, they still cause havoc. I have to put everything as I like it, as I had it before. That's what I experienced.

dgb · Apr 01, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Well, you ARE on your way to being a true Mesmer. Hmm.

EDenial is easy, which is why people run it. Stupid people.

By the way have you gotten any practice on your Dom build?

Disagree here. The top guilds are full of very smart people. And they run e-denial. They run it for a reason - because it's very hard to defend against. Focus swapping only takes you so far.

Let's look at Valkyrie's build and look how the skills go against a boon-prot. The three interupts are a bit blah. The only skills that are easy to interupt are the one second spells - guardian, holy veil and either of the two inspiration energy elites. The elites are good ones to interupt, but they are only coming up every 20/25s.

The two enchant removers are nothing unusual, you are likely to find both on an e-denial mesmer, and there usage doesn't really change so I won't discuss them.

Diversion is nasty, really nasty but there are some ways of dealing with it (the inspired line comes to mind).

It's not that this is a bad build, and there are plenty of places where it would work very well. But it's going to perform below average against a boon-prot, and in GvG there are lots of them. As a mesmer specced in domination, you want to be able to hurt the monks. Surge mesmers can do this, an interupt mesmer is stuck trying to interupt the occasional one second cast skill, while they watch RoF and so on fly past. Similarly a surge mesmer can deal damage to a warrior, this mesmer can at best diversion them (which they will normally just wait through) and cry of frustration their healing sig. Annoying? Yes. Devestating? No.

It's not that people are stupid, it's surge mesmers work, and for the most work no matter what. As far as I know the most you can reduce your energy to is 23, and you're going to have to expose more to cast usually. This you're relying on getting targets which have things you can interupt.

Valkyries · Apr 01, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Disagree here. The top guilds are full of very smart people. And they run e-denial. They run it for a reason - because it's very hard to defend against. Focus swapping only takes you so far.

Let's look at Valkyrie's build and look how the skills go against a boon-prot. The three interupts are a bit blah. The only skills that are easy to interupt are the one second spells - guardian, holy veil and either of the two inspiration energy elites. The elites are good ones to interupt, but they are only coming up every 20/25s.

The two enchant removers are nothing unusual, you are likely to find both on an e-denial mesmer, and there usage doesn't really change so I won't discuss them.

Diversion is nasty, really nasty but there are some ways of dealing with it (the inspired line comes to mind).

It's not that this is a bad build, and there are plenty of places where it would work very well. But it's going to perform below average against a boon-prot, and in GvG there are lots of them. As a mesmer specced in domination, you want to be able to hurt the monks. Surge mesmers can do this, an interupt mesmer is stuck trying to interupt the occasional one second cast skill, while they watch RoF and so on fly past. Similarly a surge mesmer can deal damage to a warrior, this mesmer can at best diversion them (which they will normally just wait through) and cry of frustration their healing sig. Annoying? Yes. Devestating? No.

It's not that people are stupid, it's surge mesmers work, and for the most work no matter what. As far as I know the most you can reduce your energy to is 23, and you're going to have to expose more to cast usually. This you're relying on getting targets which have things you can interupt.

Thanks for the answer. Im not sure what you mean by reducing your energy to 23? Im not exactly sure how you would do that. And did you mean me or the foe (or both)? I always try to have approx 50 energy, not including focus swapping. Finally just figured out how that works by reading a good article on this forum about it (I think posted by JR in GVG). So the max I can get is around 80 but average I use 50 with 4 pips.

In addition, I will agree that ESurgers do work. Ive faced them and it is pretty harsh. In fact it drives me crazy never having any energy and then just taking damage over and over. However that being said I really don't think that you HAVE to be an ESurger if you play Mesmer. That just seems to be the trend at the moment.

LightningHell, you answer your question, no I have not played GVG at all yet. My Guild is really not very active and there are not many of them who play PVP at all. We have approx 15 members, I rarely ever see anyone online much anymore and when I do its people asking me for help with their quests, not people wanting to PVP. Which is really quite sad because the leader of the guild I very much like. So I dont really wish to leave but at the same time maybe its just not for me. It seems our goals for the game are quite different. So Im not really sure what to do to get more playing time in GVG. Obviously I have to be in a group and to do that I need to be in a guild that does PVP a lot. So it makes it tough. Whats worse, is when I go to HA, unless Im an Esurger no one will even look at me.

So what I plan to do is similar to what Rii said. Im going to use those blasted Esurger tools. Energy Surge, Energy Drain, maybe 1 more and then use spells I REALLY like. Diversion is the top one that comes to mind. So Ill have a bit of a mix. So I can shutdown well and still drain the energy but maybe not focus too much on direct damage. Ill post a build later on to what I am thinking and get people's option.

One last thing, I really must thank everyone for such great comments. When I first posted this I had no idea the thread would turn out so well. Shows a lot for the community here. Cheers!

dgb · Apr 01, 2006, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Reducing energy is a common tactic against e-denial. It involves dropping your max energy as low as possible to stop energy burners burning it off. It's kind of the opposite of focus swapping. Using -energy items reduces your max energy to 23. Now say you've used 10 of that casting and a surger comes along and tries to do a surge->burn on you. The surge will remove 10 energy and do 80 damage and you will be down to 3 energy. The burn will then show a -10 above you, however it will only burn you down to zero. Your energy will now be zero, and you will take 24 damage. They can only burn you down to zero on your energy bar. So two skills with a potential to deal 160 damage have only impacted in for 104. As a monk when I have a surger on me I can keep my energy at close to zero all the time, only swapping to non negative energy items when I need to cast. Having 50 energy just gives the surger lots of energy they can do nasty things to. Having 0 revealed energy means all their burning and surging is for nothing.

As to whether you have to be an e-surger to work, then sure, you don't have to be. They just are the most effective build outside of some niche builds. Take HA - what happens when you run up against IWAY? You have one viable target out of eight to interupt, that's their tainted. You could cry of frustration the trappers I guess, but you're at the margins of effectiveness. A surger can go and hurt any character in the build, and given how often IWAY builds clump, that surge can do ridiculous ammounts of damage. Meanwhile you've taken down their tainted and are now stuck being annoying as opposed to being a real threat.

I'm not trying to say your build is bad, and I can see it working some areas. But there's a reason why e-denial mesmers are the current standard for a domination mesmer. It's that they are effective under all circumstances, and difficult to defend against (all that stuff about -energy items and reducing energy won't help you much against a good surger) - as it stands this build is difficult to defend against, but I'm not sure if it's good under all circumstances.

As an aside I ran a build very similar to this in 12v12 over the preview weekend. It had a few changes (I carried powerblock, and sprint skills from a ranger secondary) but overall it was similar. I took it there because you were virtually guaranteed to come up against a minion master or a fire elementalist which are both fodder for this sort of build. You have to ask what am I shooting for, and what do I do if a target doesn't turn up.

Valkyries · Apr 01, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Awesome comments!

So I am tinkering with an Esurge build but Im not exactly sure the best method. Of course there are the obvious which we will start with:

Energy Surge {E}
Energy Burn

Next, we must have Res. So depending on Secondary, could use a hard res or just simply

Res Signet

So this leaves 5 more slots for what to use.

I know I see a lot of people use Mind Wrack and Signet of Weariness.... The Signet is pretty nice because its free basically, but has a "fairly" long recharge time. Mind Wrack is ok... in my opinion its a nice cover hex and could potentially do 95 dmg but Im not sure if its REALLY all that great in an 8v8 environment. I figure in this setting you would have to target multiple players, but perhaps Im wrong.

Other options I would also like to squeeze in are Diversion, Shatter Enchantment, Drain Enchantment, Cry of Frustration, Power Leak and to a lesser extent Blackout. All these seem pretty nice but perhaps don't fit the build. I know there must be a thousand ESurge builds on this forum but I dont' know if I want the standard. I enjoy builds with a twist (Hense I really think Diversion has to go in. Its just so good, never realized the power of it before it was used).

Its too bad I couldn't use the Glyph and ESurge!

I know that would be ridiculas and its two elites but I really find the Glyph incredibly useful. Still I see a ton of people using ESurge, even non EDenial Mesmers. They just use that skill which is pretty understandable. Loosing 10 energy and getting blasted for 80 + everyone in the area taking the damage too is pretty nice. Reasonable cooldown and only 2 second cast (which gets lighting fast with FC).

Just some of my thoughts....

LightningHell · Apr 01, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

-snip-

Which is why I said he/she's on his/her way. Not a lot become top Mesmer players, but I'd like to see him/her become one, all the same.

Being FotM does you good in HA, though.

rii · Apr 01, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Reducing energy is a common tactic against e-denial. It involves dropping your max energy as low as possible to stop energy burners burning it off. It's kind of the opposite of focus swapping. Using -energy items reduces your max energy to 23. Now say you've used 10 of that casting and a surger comes along and tries to do a surge->burn on you. The surge will remove 10 energy and do 80 damage and you will be down to 3 energy. The burn will then show a -10 above you, however it will only burn you down to zero. Your energy will now be zero, and you will take 24 damage. They can only burn you down to zero on your energy bar. So two skills with a potential to deal 160 damage have only impacted in for 104. As a monk when I have a surger on me I can keep my energy at close to zero all the time, only swapping to non negative energy items when I need to cast. Having 50 energy just gives the surger lots of energy they can do nasty things to. Having 0 revealed energy means all their burning and surging is for nothing.

This is what mind wrack is for. Its not a cover hex... when a focus swapper tries to break energy denial via focus swapping to hide energy they often result in sitting at 0 energy with hidden regeneration coming up to 0 and beyond. At this point, agreed surge/burn does nothing... so start spamming mind wrack. For some reason i have a feeling this doesnt work since i havent used mind wrack in ages... no... Im sure it does. Anyway.

A good surge build is:

Domination: 14
Inspiration
Fast Casting

Energy Surge [e]
Energy Burn
Signet of Weariness
Mantra of Inscriptions
Leech Signet
Signet of Humility
Mind Wrack
Resurrection Signet

+40% fast recharge for domination skills.

An 85 mind wrack and 10e on both surge, burn, and SoW. Mantra lets you humility lock a monk with a buffer time as well, no more energy management elite for them... particularly deadly against oob monks if they still exist. Leech Signet on a 22.5s recharge for energy management, and indirect energy denial via interrupt.

dgb · Apr 01, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

This is what mind wrack is for. Its not a cover hex... when a focus swapper tries to break energy denial via focus swapping to hide energy they often result in sitting at 0 energy with hidden regeneration coming up to 0 and beyond. At this point, agreed surge/burn does nothing... so start spamming mind wrack. For some reason i have a feeling this doesnt work since i havent used mind wrack in ages... no... Im sure it does. Anyway.

I agree, and I know mesmers do it to me all the time. But you really don't have a choice, I'll eat the mind wrack because the alternative is much worse. If I focus swap I'm taking 100 damage from the mind wrack. If I don't I'm going to get surged and then take the mind wrack. It's also why most boon-prots carry SoD these days.

For mind wrack to trigger there energy has to go above zero, then back to zero. If you cast it on someone with zero energy then it does nothing except wait for your energy to go above zero.

rii · Apr 01, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

For mind wrack to trigger there energy has to go above zero, then back to zero. If you cast it on someone with zero energy then it does nothing except wait for your energy to go above zero.

Yeh i thought it might... it still makes life unpleasent and 'seperates the men from the boys' in terms of dealing with crap. All in all... its easy damage and when combined with a warrior in the face most people really cant handle it. For the people that can, its a diversion, and a fairly good one.

Avarre · Apr 01, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Domination: 14
Inspiration 12
Fast Casting 11

Energy Surge [e]
Energy Burn
Signet of Weariness
Mantra of Inscriptions
Leech Signet
Signet of Humility
Mind Wrack
Resurrection Signet

+40% fast recharge for domination skills.

An 85 mind wrack and 10e on both surge, burn, and SoW. Mantra lets you humility lock a monk with a buffer time as well, no more energy management elite for them... particularly deadly against oob monks if they still exist. Leech Signet on a 22.5s recharge for energy management, and indirect energy denial via interrupt.

Added the stats I use. Thats the build I run as well, and it works great. Signet of Humility can throw many builds into disarray, migrane mesmers, ss necros, spirit spammers... not just monks

Anything I could have said has been said so far, so I'll just stay quiet.^^

Evilsod · Apr 01, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

It is easily possible to use 14 domination instead of 16 since they both give 10 for Surge/Burn. I like to include Diversion and Power Leak in my build though.
Leak i suppose i could miss if i was spamming Signet of Weariness fairly often

Somet mentioned earlier about Power Block. I think its more a PvE technique tbh. In HoH and GvG another (or 2) monk(s) will always be there to cover for 1 if it gets blocked. RA/TA it could be used very effectively.

I normally take it with me to FoW though, Backfire 1 monk, Power Block the other, go back to interrupting the other one, they go down nice and quick

Valkyries · Apr 01, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

It is easily possible to use 14 domination instead of 16 since they both give 10 for Surge/Burn. I like to include Diversion and Power Leak in my build though.
Leak i suppose i could miss if i was spamming Signet of Weariness fairly often

Somet mentioned earlier about Power Block. I think its more a PvE technique tbh. In HoH and GvG another (or 2) monk(s) will always be there to cover for 1 if it gets blocked. RA/TA it could be used very effectively.

I normally take it with me to FoW though, Backfire 1 monk, Power Block the other, go back to interrupting the other one, they go down nice and quick

I really like Power Leak and Diversion as well tbh.

Both are very good but I think I may take Signet of Weariness as well. Great skill to use because its basically free... still it isn't focused much which is what I dont like. It takes away 10 E from one, doesnt do damage and although it does hit foes in the area they have to be clustered together which may not always be the case. So this may get changed with something else.

At any rate, Im going to give this build a try and see how it goes. I am not sure the exact build layout yet but Ill post something tomorrow and get some feedback on what Ill be using. In the meantime anymore comments are greatly appreciated!!